[diesel_mercedes] Re: It's Hot

 

I had my mechanic look my system over. He said it had already been switched. I thought the guy I bought it from probably had done it. Pretty capable guy in Charlotte, N.C.
Thanks for the input!!
Sid, near Niagara Falls

--- In diesel_mercedes@yahoogroups.com, "bmwsid" <sidcranston@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> --- In diesel_mercedes@yahoogroups.com, "Chip" <czulli@> wrote:
> >
> >
> > Nate,
> >
> > My German guy here in Houston is cussin me every time I,see him for allowing my R12 system to a newer product. It barely works in this heat, even with your pencil inserts,in center dash. He says it will get no better until I go back to R12.
> >
> > We can't turn back the hands of time, but Damn,if we can't try.

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Re: [diesel_mercedes] Vacuum Repair

 

Good point.  It should also be remembered that, on the diesels, the vacuum does NOT come from the intake manifold, but from a special, vacuum pump mounted at the front of the engine, driven off the auxillary shaft.  These pumps CAN go bad....

From: "Alan Boucher" <alstheone@verizon.net>
To: "diesel mercedes" <diesel_mercedes@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, June 22, 2012 5:19:50 PM
Subject: Re: [diesel_mercedes] Vacuum Repair

 

That's a good procedure for tracing vacuum leaks, but not all vacuum reservoirs are in the trunk.  On at least one of m y '80's 300s, the reservoir is under the left front fender.

On Fri, Jun 22, 2012 at 6:32 PM, brian's 83 300d's <bstromsoe@yahoo.com> wrote:
 

Ran across this in my files, might be of some interest:

VACUUM LINE FIXES #1
The vacuum comes from the intake manifold and is stored in a reservoir in the trunk.  Etc.

Reply to sender | Reply to group | Reply via web post | Start a New Topic

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Re: [diesel_mercedes] Vacuum Repair

 

That's a good procedure for tracing vacuum leaks, but not all vacuum reservoirs are in the trunk.  On at least one of m y '80's 300s, the reservoir is under the left front fender.

On Fri, Jun 22, 2012 at 6:32 PM, brian's 83 300d's <bstromsoe@yahoo.com> wrote:
 

Ran across this in my files, might be of some interest:

VACUUM LINE FIXES #1
The vacuum comes from the intake manifold and is stored in a reservoir in the trunk. If the lock in your doors only works while the car is running or will only work once after you shut the car off, then you've got a vacuum leak. Generally, it's one of the following: a leak in one of the vacuum lines, a leak in one of the vacuum-powered door lock mechanisms or a leak in the reservoir. Most likely it's one of the door lock units. Here is a step-by-step diagnostic that I prepared after fixing a vacuum leak in my own car (W123 230E 84). It turned out to be a failing locking unit for the fuel filler cover in my case.

Step 1. (a) Sit in the car with the doors unlocked and the car running. Stop the engine and wait for a minute or a two. Lock the driver's door. (b) Do the other doors lock properly? If not you have a leak in the unlocking system (yellow lines with a green stripe) and should proceed to "Step 3".

Step 2. (a) Sit in the car with the doors locked and the car running. Stop the engine and wait for a minute or a two. Unlock (open) the driver's door. (b) Do the other doors unlock properly? If not you have a leak in the locking system (yellow lines with a red stripe).

Step 3. Pull out the driver's floor mats. Underneath them, near the door you will find a black plastic cover that protects the vacuum lines. Open it and pull out the appropriate lines (green or red striped). Near the seat you will find an "H" shaped rubber connector. One vacuum line is coming from the engine compartment into the connector, one will go back to the driver's door and one will go ahead to the rear door behind the driver (left side). The last line will go over to the other side of the car. Holding the rubber connector, gently pull out the line that is going to the other side of the car and place the plug into the connector instead. Now you have disconnected the doors on the right side of the car, the trunk and the fuel fill cover. Go back into the car and close the door and start the engine. Repeat either step 1a or 2a, depending witch of them gave you the right result before. Is the rear door on the driver's side locking/unlocking properly? Note that the locking of the other doors will not be working. If the rear door is locking/unlocking properly go to "Step 6" else continue to "Step 4".

Step 4. The rear door is not locking/unlocking and you have a leak in the left side of the car (front and rear door) or in the engine compartment or in the reservoir. Place the line that you pulled out before again into the rubber connector. Gently pull out the line that goes to the rear door and place the plug there instead. Go back into the car, close the door and start the engine. Repeat either step 1a or 2a, depending witch of them gave you the right result before. Do the doors on the right side of the car lock/unlock properly? If they are locking/unlocking you have a leak in the left rear door and should proceed to "Step 5". If they are not working you have a leak in the drivers door or in the engine compartment or the reservoir. You will need a vacuum gauge to continue.

Step 5. You have found the door that is the source of the leak. Now you need to know if it is the vacuum lock unit or the vacuum lines that are leaking. Remove the door panel and you will find the locking unit in the bottom of the inside of the door. Pull out the appropriate line (red or green striped) from the unit and place the plug into the line. Go back into the car, close the doors and start the engine. Repeat either step 1a or 2a like before. Do the doors on the right side of the car lock/unlock properly? If they are locking/unlocking the leak is in the locking unit, if not it's the vacuum line that is the problem. You can easily repair the line with a small rubber tube if you find where it is leaking (just cut it where it is leaking and connect the parts again with the rubber tube). Can't help you with the locking unit.

Step 6. You have a leak in the right side of the car, the trunk or the fuel filler cover. Remove the plug from the rubber connector at the drivers side and place the line back into it again, close the cover and put the floor mats back in. Pull out the front passenger floor mats and underneath you will find another set of rubber connectors in the plastic cover on that side (one for the locking line and one for the unlocking lines like before). These connectors will be "Y" shaped with three ends going back and one to the front. One of the tree ends is connected to the line that is coming from the other side of the car, one goes to the rear door, one to the trunk. The only one that goes forward into the other direction is for the front door. We will start by disconnecting the front passenger door. Gently remove the line from the connector and place the plug instead. Go back into the car, close the doors and start the engine. Repeat either step 1a or 2a like before. Do the rear doors lock/unlock properly? If they do, the front door is the source of the leak and you should proceed to "Step 5". If they are not working just proceed to "Step 7".

Step 7. You have a leak in the right rear door, in the trunk or the fuel filler cover. We will first test the rear door for leaks. Remove the plug from the connector and reinstall the front door vacuum line. Remove the rear door vacuum line from the connector and place the plug there instead. Go back into the car, close the doors and start the engine. Repeat either step 1a or 2a like before. Do the left rear door and front passenger door lock/unlock properly? If they do, the rear door on the right side is the source of the leak and you should proceed to "Step 5". If they are not working just proceed to "Step 8".

Step 8. You have a leak in the trunk or the fuel filler cover. To verify this remove the plug from the connector and reinstall the rear door vacuum line. Remove the last vacuum line from the connector and place the plug there instead. Go back into the car, close the doors and start the engine. Repeat either step 1a or 2a like before. Do the all the doors lock/unlock properly? If they do, you have verified that the leak is in the trunk or the fuel-filler cover and can proceed to "Step 9" after removing the plug and reinstalling the line. If they don't work, try to repeat the process again if you have missed something. If they still don't work the leak will probably be in the line that goes from the left side of the car to the right under the front seats. You might also have a double leak, but since that is highly unlikely I will not deal with that here.

Step 9. We will first examine the fuel filler cover locking for leaks. Remove the plastic cover from inside of the right rear fender. You might have to go into the trunk yourself to disconnect the tree-way rubber connector. Disconnect the line that goes to the filler cover and place the plug instead. Once again repeat either step 1a or 2a like before. Do the all the doors lock/unlock properly? If they don't proceed to "Step 10", but if they do, the leak is in the fuel filler cover vacuum locking unit.

Step 10. The leak is in the trunk locking part.

Regards, Sveinn Thorsteinsson, Reykjavik, Iceland.

VACUUM LINE FIXES - #2
I got the dash off, and man is it nasty under there! It's more of a pain than the center console, and I was able to remove it without taking off the steering wheel. I didn't twist and turn it too much. No new cracks, that is...

I've found my leak, at last, in the #3 vacuum change over valve for the AC. #3 sucks from a little hole in the bottom, and I'm only assuming that it's not supposed to because none of the others do. I can plug the leak with my finger and the door locks magically work and the engine shuts off instantly. So I'm going to replace the valve and 4 of the 5 pink actuators. 2 don't hold a vacuum and I'm just going to replace them all, except for the re-circulating air flap one because I can't seem to find a replacement. All the parts web sites seem to think it is the same as the center flap actuator, but the two have different mounts. After this job, I'm hoping to get heat on my feet instead of in my face and much harder blowing AC! thanks for the help!

VACUUM LINE FIXES #3
EARLY STAGE OF MOTOR OIL entering the vacuum system and it will ruin the vac switch mounted at the steering /ignition lock . Remove the lower dash panel, disconnect the speedo cable from behind, carefully flush out the instrument cluster, unscrew the hard oil pressure hose to it's gauge, do not gouge the dash padding with the light reostat while doing all this. NOW you can remove the two vac hoses to the key vacuum switch and inspect for the presence of oil dripping out of the hoses, and if oil is there - replace the vacuum switch and the rubber hoses, and start cleaning back to the source of the oil - the motor.
The oil usually comes from a leaking Vacuum Pump Diaphram at the front of the motor. Oil will be present also in the brake booster hose and all the other vacuum hoses in the motor room. Any rubber hose with the oil in it must be replaced, and the hard plactic hoses flushed clean with a degreasing spray cleaner like Brakekleen. Where ever oil got to, those vacuum swirches need to be replaced also. The diesel motor oil eats them inside. Of course replacing the vacuum pump diaphram is another job to do. Oil doesn't make it to the doors, so they are not a worry. They will resume operation when all the other stuff is addressed. Installing a small see through inline gas filter at the brake booster T fitting will give you future early warning of the presence of oil , and prevent oil traveling further into all the branches of hoses just at that booster hose T supply fitting. This was a M-B Service Bulletin ages ago.


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[diesel_mercedes] Vacuum Repair

 

Ran across this in my files, might be of some interest:

VACUUM LINE FIXES #1
The vacuum comes from the intake manifold and is stored in a reservoir in the trunk. If the lock in your doors only works while the car is running or will only work once after you shut the car off, then you've got a vacuum leak. Generally, it's one of the following: a leak in one of the vacuum lines, a leak in one of the vacuum-powered door lock mechanisms or a leak in the reservoir. Most likely it's one of the door lock units. Here is a step-by-step diagnostic that I prepared after fixing a vacuum leak in my own car (W123 230E 84). It turned out to be a failing locking unit for the fuel filler cover in my case.

Step 1. (a) Sit in the car with the doors unlocked and the car running. Stop the engine and wait for a minute or a two. Lock the driver's door. (b) Do the other doors lock properly? If not you have a leak in the unlocking system (yellow lines with a green stripe) and should proceed to "Step 3".

Step 2. (a) Sit in the car with the doors locked and the car running. Stop the engine and wait for a minute or a two. Unlock (open) the driver's door. (b) Do the other doors unlock properly? If not you have a leak in the locking system (yellow lines with a red stripe).

Step 3. Pull out the driver's floor mats. Underneath them, near the door you will find a black plastic cover that protects the vacuum lines. Open it and pull out the appropriate lines (green or red striped). Near the seat you will find an "H" shaped rubber connector. One vacuum line is coming from the engine compartment into the connector, one will go back to the driver's door and one will go ahead to the rear door behind the driver (left side). The last line will go over to the other side of the car. Holding the rubber connector, gently pull out the line that is going to the other side of the car and place the plug into the connector instead. Now you have disconnected the doors on the right side of the car, the trunk and the fuel fill cover. Go back into the car and close the door and start the engine. Repeat either step 1a or 2a, depending witch of them gave you the right result before. Is the rear door on the driver's side locking/unlocking properly? Note that the locking of the other doors will not be working. If the rear door is locking/unlocking properly go to "Step 6" else continue to "Step 4".

Step 4. The rear door is not locking/unlocking and you have a leak in the left side of the car (front and rear door) or in the engine compartment or in the reservoir. Place the line that you pulled out before again into the rubber connector. Gently pull out the line that goes to the rear door and place the plug there instead. Go back into the car, close the door and start the engine. Repeat either step 1a or 2a, depending witch of them gave you the right result before. Do the doors on the right side of the car lock/unlock properly? If they are locking/unlocking you have a leak in the left rear door and should proceed to "Step 5". If they are not working you have a leak in the drivers door or in the engine compartment or the reservoir. You will need a vacuum gauge to continue.

Step 5. You have found the door that is the source of the leak. Now you need to know if it is the vacuum lock unit or the vacuum lines that are leaking. Remove the door panel and you will find the locking unit in the bottom of the inside of the door. Pull out the appropriate line (red or green striped) from the unit and place the plug into the line. Go back into the car, close the doors and start the engine. Repeat either step 1a or 2a like before. Do the doors on the right side of the car lock/unlock properly? If they are locking/unlocking the leak is in the locking unit, if not it's the vacuum line that is the problem. You can easily repair the line with a small rubber tube if you find where it is leaking (just cut it where it is leaking and connect the parts again with the rubber tube). Can't help you with the locking unit.

Step 6. You have a leak in the right side of the car, the trunk or the fuel filler cover. Remove the plug from the rubber connector at the drivers side and place the line back into it again, close the cover and put the floor mats back in. Pull out the front passenger floor mats and underneath you will find another set of rubber connectors in the plastic cover on that side (one for the locking line and one for the unlocking lines like before). These connectors will be "Y" shaped with three ends going back and one to the front. One of the tree ends is connected to the line that is coming from the other side of the car, one goes to the rear door, one to the trunk. The only one that goes forward into the other direction is for the front door. We will start by disconnecting the front passenger door. Gently remove the line from the connector and place the plug instead. Go back into the car, close the doors and start the engine. Repeat either step 1a or 2a like before. Do the rear doors lock/unlock properly? If they do, the front door is the source of the leak and you should proceed to "Step 5". If they are not working just proceed to "Step 7".

Step 7. You have a leak in the right rear door, in the trunk or the fuel filler cover. We will first test the rear door for leaks. Remove the plug from the connector and reinstall the front door vacuum line. Remove the rear door vacuum line from the connector and place the plug there instead. Go back into the car, close the doors and start the engine. Repeat either step 1a or 2a like before. Do the left rear door and front passenger door lock/unlock properly? If they do, the rear door on the right side is the source of the leak and you should proceed to "Step 5". If they are not working just proceed to "Step 8".

Step 8. You have a leak in the trunk or the fuel filler cover. To verify this remove the plug from the connector and reinstall the rear door vacuum line. Remove the last vacuum line from the connector and place the plug there instead. Go back into the car, close the doors and start the engine. Repeat either step 1a or 2a like before. Do the all the doors lock/unlock properly? If they do, you have verified that the leak is in the trunk or the fuel-filler cover and can proceed to "Step 9" after removing the plug and reinstalling the line. If they don't work, try to repeat the process again if you have missed something. If they still don't work the leak will probably be in the line that goes from the left side of the car to the right under the front seats. You might also have a double leak, but since that is highly unlikely I will not deal with that here.

Step 9. We will first examine the fuel filler cover locking for leaks. Remove the plastic cover from inside of the right rear fender. You might have to go into the trunk yourself to disconnect the tree-way rubber connector. Disconnect the line that goes to the filler cover and place the plug instead. Once again repeat either step 1a or 2a like before. Do the all the doors lock/unlock properly? If they don't proceed to "Step 10", but if they do, the leak is in the fuel filler cover vacuum locking unit.

Step 10. The leak is in the trunk locking part.

Regards, Sveinn Thorsteinsson, Reykjavik, Iceland.

VACUUM LINE FIXES - #2
I got the dash off, and man is it nasty under there! It's more of a pain than the center console, and I was able to remove it without taking off the steering wheel. I didn't twist and turn it too much. No new cracks, that is...

I've found my leak, at last, in the #3 vacuum change over valve for the AC. #3 sucks from a little hole in the bottom, and I'm only assuming that it's not supposed to because none of the others do. I can plug the leak with my finger and the door locks magically work and the engine shuts off instantly. So I'm going to replace the valve and 4 of the 5 pink actuators. 2 don't hold a vacuum and I'm just going to replace them all, except for the re-circulating air flap one because I can't seem to find a replacement. All the parts web sites seem to think it is the same as the center flap actuator, but the two have different mounts. After this job, I'm hoping to get heat on my feet instead of in my face and much harder blowing AC! thanks for the help!

VACUUM LINE FIXES #3
EARLY STAGE OF MOTOR OIL entering the vacuum system and it will ruin the vac switch mounted at the steering /ignition lock . Remove the lower dash panel, disconnect the speedo cable from behind, carefully flush out the instrument cluster, unscrew the hard oil pressure hose to it's gauge, do not gouge the dash padding with the light reostat while doing all this. NOW you can remove the two vac hoses to the key vacuum switch and inspect for the presence of oil dripping out of the hoses, and if oil is there - replace the vacuum switch and the rubber hoses, and start cleaning back to the source of the oil - the motor.
The oil usually comes from a leaking Vacuum Pump Diaphram at the front of the motor. Oil will be present also in the brake booster hose and all the other vacuum hoses in the motor room. Any rubber hose with the oil in it must be replaced, and the hard plactic hoses flushed clean with a degreasing spray cleaner like Brakekleen. Where ever oil got to, those vacuum swirches need to be replaced also. The diesel motor oil eats them inside. Of course replacing the vacuum pump diaphram is another job to do. Oil doesn't make it to the doors, so they are not a worry. They will resume operation when all the other stuff is addressed. Installing a small see through inline gas filter at the brake booster T fitting will give you future early warning of the presence of oil , and prevent oil traveling further into all the branches of hoses just at that booster hose T supply fitting. This was a M-B Service Bulletin ages ago.

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[diesel_mercedes] Re: air in the clear fuel line from the secondary filter to the inje

 

My system is looped with a valve to unloop it to get rid of air in the system.
Return line leaks will definitely cause air in the system. My return line is
plumed into the lift pump with a T. I'm still thinking banjo bolt but I don't
see any fuel. LR

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Re: [diesel_mercedes] Re: It's Hot

Just a few comments about refrigerants,

First it is the system oil that is incompatible with the different refrigerants. In order to do the conversion properly you must depressure the system, remove the compressor and accumulator and drain them, flush the hoses with a cooling system flush, reassemble (preferably with a new accumulator) with compatible o-rings at every connection and vacuum test. Once it holds the vacuum for 30 minutes, or so, refill the system with the required quantity of oil being careful not to ingest any air along with it, and recharge with refrigerant that is compatible with the oil used.

There are "snake oils" in both the refrigerant oil and refrigerants that claim to be compatible with each other so that you may avoid the conversion process. Some of this stuff a propane derivative that is extremely flammable. This stuff appears to be another CFC that the EPA has deemed "safe" but, beware, there are some of these that are propane derivatives which are extremely flammable. The MSDS is here: http://www.technicalchemical.com/msds/6030.pdf . As for the oils, some are marketed as having the ability to mix together and allow refrigerants to be co-mingled. Use at your own risk!

Bottom line, R-134 is what the EPA and Feds have deemed "safe" to use so ultimately the conversion is necessary. The trick is to get a good vacuum evacuation after the conversion, NOT pull air in with the refrigerant oil, and recharge properly and fully. R-134 runs at ~10% higher pressures than R-12 to supply the same cooling so that, in itself, may cause some component failures (hoses, mostly). Also, the expansion valve or orifice tube must be in good condition as that is where the "refrigeration" takes place.

The new vehicles these days that use R-134 will "freeze you out" so it is not the refrigerant's fault but the design of the old systems that we are trying to convert. It is a compromise, at best.

As an aside, there is/was nothing any more toxic or harmful in R-12 than ANY of the replacement refrigerants we struggle with today. The problem was that DuPont's patent was expiring on R-12 so they developed a "safer" replacement and patented it to enrich DuPont! Lobbyist money will buy LOTS of legislation these days!

Mark in Texas



On 6/22/2012 8:07 AM, Chip wrote:
 

Sid,

Here is a source on a product called Freeze-12 listed at Amazon. Anyone used this stuff?

http://www.amazon.com/Freeze-12-Refrigerant-R-12-Replacement-Can/dp/B002EQKP2Q

Chip
Houston

--- In diesel_mercedes@yahoogroups.com, "Chip" <czulli@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> Sid,
>
> My German mechanic that uses nothing but dealer Benz parts has a stock of it, not sure where he got it. I am not sure what he wants to charge me to change over my system. These two things might be closely related!
>
> I understand that there is an R12 that can still be bought that has some modification but works, not sure of the name.
>
> I also hear R12 is cheap and plentiful in Mexico but that's a bit far for you and a bit dangerous for me.
>
> Chip
> Houston
>

No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2012.0.2180 / Virus Database: 2437/5084 - Release Date: 06/21/12


--


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Re: [diesel_mercedes] Re: It's Hot

 

I think Freeze 12 was what my mechanic used last time. Worked great until it evaporated out of my compressor.
 
brian from laverne, ca
Mary (195K)  Martha (280K)
1983 w123 300d's
From: Chip <czulli@gmail.com>
To: diesel_mercedes@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, June 22, 2012 6:07 AM
Subject: [diesel_mercedes] Re: It's Hot

 
Sid,

Here is a source on a product called Freeze-12 listed at Amazon. Anyone used this stuff?

http://www.amazon.com/Freeze-12-Refrigerant-R-12-Replacement-Can/dp/B002EQKP2Q

Chip
Houston

--- In diesel_mercedes@yahoogroups.com, "Chip" <czulli@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> Sid,
>
> My German mechanic that uses nothing but dealer Benz parts has a stock of it, not sure where he got it. I am not sure what he wants to charge me to change over my system. These two things might be closely related!
>
> I understand that there is an R12 that can still be bought that has some modification but works, not sure of the name.
>
> I also hear R12 is cheap and plentiful in Mexico but that's a bit far for you and a bit dangerous for me.
>
> Chip
> Houston
>



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Re: [diesel_mercedes] Re: It's Hot

 

My guy uses something else in place of R12 also - forget the name but it pricey ($100 to fill my system, which of course had a leak in the compressor). I think R12 is out there "in hiding" perhaps having been bought up by hoarders. Anyone out there a friend of an A/C mechanic - we need some "from the horses mouth" info on best approach here.
 
brian from laverne, ca
Mary (195K)  Martha (280K)
1983 w123 300d's
From: Chip <czulli@gmail.com>
To: diesel_mercedes@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, June 21, 2012 6:13 PM
Subject: [diesel_mercedes] Re: It's Hot

 


Sid,

My German mechanic that uses nothing but dealer Benz parts has a stock of it, not sure where he got it. I am not sure what he wants to charge me to change over my system. These two things might be closely related!

I understand that there is an R12 that can still be bought that has some modification but works, not sure of the name.

I also hear R12 is cheap and plentiful in Mexico but that's a bit far for you and a bit dangerous for me.

Chip
Houston



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[diesel_mercedes] Re: It's Hot

 



--- In diesel_mercedes@yahoogroups.com, "Chip" <czulli@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> Sid,
>
> My German mechanic that uses nothing but dealer Benz parts has a stock of it, not sure where he got it. I am not sure what he wants to charge me to change over my system. These two things might be closely related!
>
> I understand that there is an R12 that can still be bought that has some modification but works, not sure of the name.
>
> I also hear R12 is cheap and plentiful in Mexico but that's a bit far for you and a bit dangerous for me.
>
> Chip
> Houston
>
Yes, Mexico does not sound like a good place to go. Have them send me some in a bucket?
Guess I will try the 134a in it. cooler today, so far, anyhow!

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[diesel_mercedes] Re: It's Hot

 

Sid,

Here is a source on a product called Freeze-12 listed at Amazon. Anyone used this stuff?

http://www.amazon.com/Freeze-12-Refrigerant-R-12-Replacement-Can/dp/B002EQKP2Q

Chip
Houston

--- In diesel_mercedes@yahoogroups.com, "Chip" <czulli@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> Sid,
>
> My German mechanic that uses nothing but dealer Benz parts has a stock of it, not sure where he got it. I am not sure what he wants to charge me to change over my system. These two things might be closely related!
>
> I understand that there is an R12 that can still be bought that has some modification but works, not sure of the name.
>
> I also hear R12 is cheap and plentiful in Mexico but that's a bit far for you and a bit dangerous for me.
>
> Chip
> Houston
>

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