[diesel_mercedes] another musing re: the loping engines.

 

I am wondering how much of the loping or churning or cycling on these older engines is due to pulsating nature of the fuel pressure in the IP due to the fact that the lift pump is only supplying pressure during half of the "machine cycle". That is half of every two revolutions. it is powered by an eccentric lobe on the IP which turns once for each two turns of the engine. So half the time it is pushing against a spring and half the time it is letting that spring release and deliver another pulse of fuel to the IP.  So it is possible that for as much as half the machine cycle there is no refill pressure to the IP. It's just a thought. But there is no obvious mechanism to store that pressure for use during the half of the time that the eccentric is pushing against the spring in the lift pump. Then again it could be a bad rack damper bolt. But it's worth mentioning anyway.

Bogy.


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Posted by: Bogy Wan Kenobi <polespearbogy@yahoo.com>
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Re: [diesel_mercedes] loping engine

 

Ok let me see . . . the fuel comes from the tank into the lift pump on the outboard side of the IP.
From there it goes into the main fuel filter through a banjo bolt on the inboard side of the filter.
Just forward of that fuel filter inlet banjo bolt is the outlet banjo bolt that delivers fuel to the IP.
So the fuel enters the IP on the outboard side of the IP.
This outboard banjo bolt on the IP is the inlet to the fuel galley.
Now, on the INBOARD side of the IP is another Banjo bolt that has a second bolt head of a slightly smaller size. This is the fuel return to the tank through a junction on the top of the fuel filter. That inboard banjo bolt is the one I was referring to. That smaller bolt head is keeping a spring and ball assembly under compression and the ball acts like a check valve (a one-way valve). That check valve is what keeps a bit of pressure in the IP galley.  If it isn't working properly, and depending how it fails, either  air will not bleed out of the IP galley or there may not be the pressure needed to refill the individual pumps after each little squirt.

Now the injector return hoses are a different story. They are also pressurized by the lift pump, but  only because the pressure pulse passes through to the return line through a small air bleed orifice at the top of the main filter. This keeps new air from getting into the injection pump once it has been bled of all air otherwise. And though it is a small hole it still lightly pressurizes the return lines of the injectors. I you are getting a lot of leaking through the injector return lines, then replacing those small hoses is indicated. And this may be where the relatively large amount of fuel in those return lines is coming from.

I know of no check valve to keep the return flow out of the injector return lines. Although installing one might not be a bad thing to try.

hope this helped.
Bogy.

"Hardware eventually fails. Software eventually works"                 - Michael Hartung



From: "Carl diyernh@comcast.net [diesel_mercedes]" <diesel_mercedes@yahoogroups.com>
To: diesel_mercedes@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2016 7:18 PM
Subject: Re: [diesel_mercedes] loping engine



Sometimes it's small details.... Where is the "fuel galley return hose outlet check valve"?  I'm seeing bad leaking on the injector return hoses.  The injectors aren't supplying the quantity of fuel, it is coming from the fuel filter.  Is there supposed to be a check valve to avoid the flow from the filter banjo bolt to injector overflow hose?
Thanks for the info.
Carl


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Posted by: Bogy Wan Kenobi <polespearbogy@yahoo.com>
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Re: [diesel_mercedes] loping engine

 

Sometimes it's small details.... Where is the "fuel galley return hose outlet check valve"?  I'm seeing bad leaking on the injector return hoses.  The injectors aren't supplying the quantity of fuel, it is coming from the fuel filter.  Is there supposed to be a check valve to avoid the flow from the filter banjo bolt to injector overflow hose?

Thanks for the info.

Carl



On 8/16/2016 11:08 PM, Bogy Wan Kenobi polespearbogy@yahoo.com [diesel_mercedes] wrote:
 
Nate (and everyoone) but especially nate;

A few days ago you talked about finding the weak cylinder in a loping engine.  I have lost the email, but I believe you tried the one-at-a-time cylinder method where you "crack the nuts" one at a time and look for a lack of change in the engine. I believe you said that it revealed nothing and I have been mulling that for a few days as I have the same thing in my TD. Every cylinder was contributing to the operation of the engine at idle and cracking the nuts one at a time actually proved that. The engine was obviously benefiting from each cylinder and every nut I cracked slowed the engine down. So here is what I came up with FOR WHAT IT'S WORTH . . .

The problem isn't a non contributing cylinder.  It is one or more under-contributing cylinder(s). Probably close to each other in the injecting order. ( yeah, right, like any two cylinders could be more than two apart in the injecting order. (slaps forehead) well duhhh.) it's an issue of ballance, in other words.

Anyway, having gained a wealth of understanding dealing with my jeep engine, today I went after the fuel system on my 300TD.
   I replaced every outlet check valve,
   I tested every injector - 4 "popped" at about 1700 - 1800 and one was less than 1500
   I replaced the weak injector with another one that popped at 1700 - 1800.
   I used one of my test adapters to check each outlet under pressure for a spray pattern at cranking speed.
      (this is not a rigorous test but can reveal obviously low or high flows through the injector.)
   I cleaned the heat shields and seats under them on each injector hole.
   I cleaned the check valves in the lift pump
   I cleaned and unstuck the fuel galley return hose outlet check valve
   Then I put it all together and bled it out and got only a barel noticeable difference. 

Then I did the unthinkable in an attempt to balance the contribution of each cylinder - I loosened the 13mm nuts on the outlet pipes (but just barely since those shims are part of the tune of the system) and one by one I twisted the outlet with a 15mm wrench. Stress 15mm! (At this point let me just say that I haven't learned what I know by listening to those who tell me not to ever do something.) On each outlet one of two things happened - 1) either the engine changed speeds a bit or 2)the loping diminished. If the speeds changed I let the springiness  of the delivery pipe return it to it's original position then helped it with the wrench find it's old position. But . . . if the loping or chugging or (insert you favorite word for imbalance here) diminished I worked it until it was as smooth as possible with that outlet pipe. In my case #2 and #5 IIRC noticeably affected the smoothness of the engine. When I got it as smooth as possible on any adjustment I tightened down one of the 13mm nuts. I kept repeating this with all cylinders that would improve the smoothness. Those that only changed engine speeds I left alone. When I got it as smooth as I could I locked down all the 13mm nuts and then cracked and tightened each 17mm nut to relieve the spring stress from twisting the delivery lines. 

The result - there is still an audibly noticeable imbalance. But the engine is not shaking anywhere near as much as it did 20 minutes before the procedure. In fact it is remarkably stable. It has a very regular clatter even with the slightly audible imbalance.  Perhaps a new rack damper is in order.

Anyway, this "worked for me". So I thought I would pass it along. Hope it helps.
 
Bogy


"Hardware eventually fails. Software eventually works"                 - Michael Hartung

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Posted by: Carl <diyernh@comcast.net>
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